this struck me as bazaar. this isn't a post about prop 8 or my views on it, this is not to talk about what is and is not acceptable.
for those of you who try to stay away from facebook-- good, keep doing so, this is a group called "Stop persecution of the LDS church for prop 8!" This came across absurd to me for several reasons.
Mainly this--- who is the victim here, really? Supposedly everyone is, but the more i read and come to know i have realized that the Yes campaign used a lot of unrealistic scare tactics, the biggest being that they will teach children about homosexuality. I don't know, even if people did, if it was done appropriately i dont see how thats damaging if done appropriately. I dont think it should be advised or taught just as many issues are left alone in public schools. I was not taught acceptance as a child, which is why my mentality was that the whole thing was 'not normal' and 'wrong' again this isnt a question of that, its just about in general the honesty of all of this, if you use tactics like that, of course people are going to vote against it, even homosexuals would if they didnt understand that thats not true.
Being a part of a group that says that you are a victim of persecution, honestly? As a member of the LDS Church you should understand that your opinions are different and not popular by now, I sure have, its been that way since it started. This is also how homosexuals are--- they have been told they are wrong by lots of people, but its a frustrating feeling. I am not saying they are the same things, because they arnt, but the hate others have built even when saying they 'love the sinner but hate the sin' is a frustrating feeling. I think we have all felt this to some degree.
So basically here is my beef-People protested at lots of places, just because they protested in front of the temple, the temple means something different to some people than it does to you. Dont pretend that you are the victim, and you are hated, and that there is absolutely no reason people would be upset with the church, because it is within your rights, but to me---- there is no denial that $20 million dollars does help tip the scales.
Extremists--Its our right to protest, but you have to understand why certain things rub people the wrong way, all of this cannot be summed up in a sign that says 'bah bah bah', its ineffective, foolish, fighting. Stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJYn3BoZkcQ) is not 100% honest either.
I received this email from a person i hardly know by simply saying that I am sad that marriage equality does not exist yet.
"I don’t want to sound rude, but you obviously aren’t a *faithful*
Mormon. A Mormon you may be, but you must not have much in the way of faith if you don’t trust that the Prophet speaks for God in instances
such as this. And if you don’t believe that, then your trust in the
Church in general sort of unravels. God does not believe in marriage equality, why should we?"
So because a prophet says something, i am not allowed to think otherwise? I support Thomas S. Monson. We have to realize he is mortal too, Prophets make mistakes. I'm just saying if it doesnt feel right to you, and you dont get your own 'revelation' or whatever you would like to refer to it as.(fuzzy feeling, "at peace with it", etc) Sorry, I can't dig on that. I cant push away my own thoughts and compromise to confusion. Faith plays a huge role in a lot of my views, but this one i cant seem to again, have my own 'revelation' of.
is anyone else bothered by the attitudes of people on this issue? both sides, im calling you out.
so people, lets learn respect for one another, thats the biggest issue as far as im concerned.
i love you, no matter what you think.
b.
10 comments:
I'm bothered by people on both sides. I'm bothered by the protesters and I'm bothered by other members, who can't believe people are protesting in front of the temple. What did you expect?? We totally asked for this, and I hate that we did.
I wish that President Monson hadn't come out like he did and told everyone how to handle the prop 8 issue. I believe that we should have been able to decide for ourselves. If we had kept quiet about this whole thing, we wouldn't have protesters and we wouldn't have given people another reason to hate us.
I cannot get behind this. I've tried, because I've been told to, but I can't force myself to think a certain way when I don't. There is no reason homosexuals shouldn't be able to marry.
See, I disagree about what you guys said about President Monson. It's the prophet's job to speak for God. Let's take "the Church" out of the equation for a minute and base this on something a little more fundamental and universal, the Bible. Let's assume that the Bible is pretty clear about homosexual activity being against the will of God (which it is, but "wrong/right" isn't your point, I know). So based simply on the teachings of the Bible, and if Thomas S. is really a prophet, wouldn't it be his job to denounce a practice (i.e. homosexual marriage) that condones something that is contrary to the will of God?
To Maddy:
As far as being able to decide for ourselves goes, don't you do that anyway? If you believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry haven't you done just that?
And I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning for wanting the Church to "keep quiet" about this. To simply avoid these protests? To me, that's not much of a reason. If that's the case, then why not just change the Church's beliefs as popular opinion changes? Doing that would save the Church a lot of criticism.
The main issue here is that people are naturally drawn towards drama. If you really think about it, it seems like almost all conflicts come from inadequate communication.
I've also seen that people like to make themselves victims because it's easier than accepting the reality that in most cases, we control our own happiness.
Did Proposition 8 passing really change the lifestyles of homosexuals that much? Has all the protesting really done anything?
The reality is that it isn't as monumental as people are making it out to be.
I have LDS friends in California, and I haven't heard that any of them are unable to worship because of gay people marching around making a bunch of noise.
I also used to live next door to a gay couple (in New Jersey, not California) I knew them well, I even took care of their dog when they went on vacation together. They worked separate jobs, and when they got home they ate dinner together, maybe watched something on the t.v. and probably had sex sometimes.
I doubt their lives changed much since the California Supreme Court ruling, or the passing of Proposition 8. I know this amendment has implications outside of the immediate results we've seen, but can we please stop acting like it's acceptance means that it's now tolerable to go lynch every homosexual we come across, or that if it failed everyday life would suddenly resemble a gay porno movie and all people would immediately be destroyed by the wrath of God?
Personally I don't feel two gay people getting married in California threatens me or my ability to marry a heterosexual woman in any way.
What bothers me is people saying what THE CHURCH should or shouldn't have done when they really don't know what "THE CHURCH" actually said or did.
For the record, this is exactly what "THE CHURCH" and President Monson said:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-divine-institution-of-marriage
I really don't think that anyone should comment on what President Monson or "The Church" said or did until he/she has INTENTLY READ THE ENTIRE THING.
Using what some bishop taught his ward or what some unofficial LDS magazine printed as the position of the Mormon Church makes about as much sense as taking Mel Gibson's drunken babble as official doctrine of the Catholic Church.
I also think it's important to realize that The Church did not have much input on the tactics used by the "Yes" campaign, they supported it because it had the same objective.
Brent, the person who e-mailed you was passing a judgment that he/she had no right to and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. The ignorant statements I see some people make in the name of religion or Jesus really bother me.
Maddy I'm glad you're sympathetic to the rights of individuals.
I do disagree with the words "no reason" in the last sentence of your comment.
Let me give you a few:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-blankenhorn19-2008sep19,0,2093869.story
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-oe-gallagher1-2008nov01,0,5151041.story
You may not agree with these reasons, and I don't think you're a bad person if you don't. But I think they at least deserve consideration.
I think the best thing we can do is to promote understanding. People may never see eye-to-eye on issues like this, but if we seek to understand, then we can identify a common good that almost everyone wants (stronger families, for example) and come up with compromises that can improve society and reduce conflict.
This is a tough one,cause no matter what you say someone will disagree with you. But what the hell I'll throw out my opinion. I say to each thier own. And by that I mean that each side has thier opinion, lets hear it think about and then respect it.
That said I do have a problem with the protest. The no on 8 side is being completly hypocrytical on this. They are saying that their contitutional rights are being taken away. So what do they do, they protest the yes side for using their contistutional right to vote. So they don't have a leg to stand on so to say because of their actions.
Some Church members also have been out of line, the typical relief society rumors and people taking things of context so blame lies there also.
I agree with most of what Quinn and Myke have said. But, and Maddy this isn't an attack on you, I can't agree with saying the church asked for this. The church took the only stance since it teaches that homosexuality is a sin and shouldn't be practiced. Their credibilty would have been shot if they hadn't taken that public stance. And don't think for a second that that would not have come up at some point. From a PR standpoint this is a disaster but in the long run I think it will only help the church keep its credibility. It shows that the church stands behind what it preaches.
I think the important thing really is to relax. I think what I've learned from all this is that there truly must be a prophet. I don't claim to understand all things, that would be silly. Which is why I subscribe to a man who does.
Simply put, I don't see it. And the more I try to understand, the less I agree. But obviously President Monson sees something myself, and many others do not. Surely the last thing God wants is contention among the members.
My marriage is sacred, regardless of proposition 8.
p.s. Brent sorry I haven't called, I'm a terrible friend, we've been housesitting for this family, we are totes a mommy and daddy this weekend.
dude. i will only get comments if i post about stuff like this.
oh well. love you all. =]
my biggest question after reading all of this, is just that i want to say that i will not believe everything thomas s monson says. I wont. my respect for him is huge, as was for president hinkley, i love that man.
im not saying people dont think for themselves, either way, you probably have thought it out for yourself, and im not calling people dumb sheep or something i hate that and thats disrespectful.
all I am saying is that for me, I can't just 'hold to the rod' i have to look to 'the liahona' if you will (all metaphors, take it easy.)
we dont adjust from popular opinion, but we LEARN more about the issue. President Kimball referred to homosexuality as a 'mental illness' that was what it was thought to be at the time. we know better. he is a prophet of god, but i dont believe god told him that, i just dont, the view of the church changes, i dont think its going to change much more, but i dont know. All I'm saying is that unless i really have my own personal revelation on it, im not going to believe it, do i not respect him? no. I do. I drink caffeine, some people think thats not ok, but i never had any sort of revelation on the topic, if i do i'll change. so thats really all im saying.
how do we interpret what from the old testament and such is and isnt reliable, i have no idea, if i followed it all to the core id be the craziest person you knew. anyways, still love you all, get both sides, just sharing my experience with it all.
b.
Brent you bring up a great point. While prophets are authorized to speak in God's behalf, not every word they utter their entire lives is the will of the Lord.
People have left the Church because they don't understand this concept. I've talked to people who have read some absurd thing that some apostle said in the 1800's that was recorded by someone else decades later and then published in the journal of discourses or something like that and they lose their testimonies over it.
That being said, I don't think it's always necessary to receive a personal revelation in order to follow or believe a counsel. In most cases, we "receive no witness until after the trial of (our) faith." Sometimes we have to personally experience the blessings of following a commandment before we can fully understand it.
At the same time, we should always seek to understand why we believe what we do and why we live the way we do.
It's important for each of us too look at our OWN lives and remove the beam from our own eye before trying to remove the moat from the eye of our neighbor.
Jesus taught "He without sin cast the first stone."
Sheltering ourselves from the beliefs of others and refusing to listen to different perspectives does not benefit anybody.
Thanks, Brent for bringing this topic up. I've learned a lot from everyone who has commented on here.
I was gonna comment again but I think Quinn said what I wanted to but better.
But in quick reference to Brent's Old Testament question, it mentions homosexuality (briefly) in the New Testament as well. And as far as interpreting the OT goes, that's where a prophet and/or personal revalation comes in handy.
And yeah, I'm glad you posted this too. Too many people just blog about "things" or just post YouTube videos (including myself) and don't take time to share their thoughts. It's not only interesting and fun to discuss, but it helps me to see where people who might have differing opinions than my own are coming from.
its odd you know? its very vague. never mentioned in the book of mormon either. oh wellz.
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